Speaker 1: 0:12

how's it going, everybody, and welcome to episode 275 of master my garden podcast. So this week's episode is an exciting one. So up in county wicklow there's a project ongoing called Wild Acres Nature Reserve and it was started by Bryna Toole and Gillie Taylor and it's a fascinating place. It was actually. I had heard about it about a year ago and have since been following on Instagram. It's I about 18 acres, but it has 52 ponds, has 15,000 native trees planted over the last few years, has four acres of wildflower meadows. I have about a 400 square meter wildflower meadow and I think I'm great, but there's four acres of this here and it has become an education center, a nature reserve, and there's loads of ongoing workshops that are going on all through the summer. So things like how to create a wildlife pond, which we speak about on the podcast and have spoken about on the podcast before. There's ones on beekeeping and loads of sort of related workshops as we go through.

Speaker 1: 1:28

But it's a fascinating project. There's what has happened in the transformation we're going to hear about now in a minute, but there's. It's like you know what I've said with my little wildflower meadow when you create an environment or a habitat, the wildlife will come, and I've seen that with my first pair of bullfinches that I keep harping on about on the podcast. Never had them before and they have come in as a result of it. So if you can imagine just scaling up that and the amount of you know different wildlife that will come in off the back of that, it's amazing. So, brian and Gillian, you're very, very welcome to Master my Garden podcast thank you very much.

Speaker 2: 2:02

Pleasure to be here, pleasure to meet you. Yeah, yeah, yeah so it's a fascinating project.

Speaker 1: 2:09

Um, I suppose the first place we need to start is where exactly this idea, or brainchild, or what was the catalyst for the idea and you know, and then we'll start to move through.

Speaker 2: 2:21

Yeah, yeah okay, well, I'll, I'll. I'll start because Brian doesn't like talking about himself too much, so I'm going to start on that one, because I'm going to tell you about the wild child that he was.

Speaker 3: 2:36

Yeah, you make me sound like a rock star.

Speaker 2: 2:40

Wild child from a nature point of view.

Speaker 2: 2:43

TVs at the hotel window, that's really where it all started, I suppose with Brian as a child growing up in Dublin and Cabin Tealy had access out the back of the garden through a gap into a native woodland with the meandering streams with it.

Speaker 2: 3:00

And you know you really just as a youth, were just drawn to nature and spent your time in that and I'm always fascinated like listening to this as a story growing up.

Speaker 2: 3:11

You know, and um a couple of siblings that might never have set foot in the woodland but you know he was one of those um children that was naturally gifted with this um draw to nature and wanting to find out more. And you know upturning stones, finding out about the bugs and creatures that are there and rescuing jackdaws and badgers and any animals that are in trouble. And you know to spend that time immersed in nature as a small child with and obviously back in the day you had a lot of freedom that you weren't in. There wasn't the helicopter parent day, you know there was sort of. You know he was allowed to spend time there alone and really just immerse in nature and I think from there it kind of grew with you. You know constantly reading and watching David Attenborough and Jacques Cousteau and books and encyclopedias going to the library, so that love of nature was always there. And I think that's really where the journey began. For you, am I?

Speaker 3: 4:13

right. Yeah, I mean, if I just listen, thank you, I take the naturally gifted bit. I tell you what that doesn't go off, but look, listen, it's been. Yeah, I mean, and it is often something I wonder about, you know, are we born with the love of nature or is it something that develops? And I, you know, um, I think sometimes you can be born with it, definitely, you know, I remember as a kid since I was could walk, being fascinated by nature. But I mean, even you yourself, jillian, I mean, you've always been, um, you grew up, or both, from south dublin. You grew up very local to here as well and you were always into the outdoor life. And Gillie's a ski instructor and has always been into outdoor pursuits, trekking and skiing.

Speaker 3: 4:52

And you know, just in the last, you know, since we bought the land, we had this desire to maybe buy some land and change direction. We both worked in corporate careers for 30 odd years and we just saw the biodiversity crisis and interlinked climate they're totally inseparable climate crisis unfolding and we just want to do something, to do the best we can and have an impact, and that was to buy land. And, as I said, ginny just has become completely immersed in it and, as I said Ginny, just has become completely. You've become completely immersed in it and it's just mesmerising as to how much you've. You know it's 24-7,. You know, in relation to the immersion in biodiversity and your study of biodiversity, I think it's interesting to think, though, that there's two very different examples.

Speaker 2: 5:42

So, brian, who was naturally drawn to it and and and learned about it, you know our native flora and fauna since he was a small child and continued that all the way through his life, whereas for me, while always interested in the great outdoors, I never delved into the detail of the flora, the flora and fauna you know um, and in school you didn't really get that you know, other than the nature table in junior and senior infants. It didn't continue on throughout school, so I didn't, but in the seven years since we started with when we got the land, I suppose have been. Yeah, as you said, brian, I've been studying.

Speaker 3: 6:20

It's not just studying, you've been infatuated, I've been totally drawn to it. It's not just studying, it's being infatuated.

Speaker 2: 6:25

I'm absolutely loving it, totally drawn to it, totally drawn to it and kind of feel that it's never too late to learn.

Speaker 3: 6:31

No, that's the great thing.

Speaker 2: 6:33

And no one knows it all.

Speaker 3: 6:34

That's the other great thing. I mean you don't have to know the Latin names of every plant and every animal to be totally awestruck by the beauty of the biodiversity we have here in Ireland to be totally awestruck by the beauty of the biodiversity we have here in Ireland. And that's something we really try and impress upon people. Not impress upon them, that's the wrong term, but show them. And we do show it to people that come down to us. We have stunning biodiversity. I mean, just the weekend we did Creating a Wildlife Ponds workshop. As part of the workshop we do a pond dip beforehand before the attendees come down and we put all the wildlife out in trays on the table and you know, show people as to what's in the ponds and they're totally blown away. They'll see water scorpions and dragonfly nymphs and newts and tadpoles and water boatmen.

Speaker 3: 7:18

There's just so much biodiversity there and we show them videos of kingfisher we've taken coming in and fishing off the perch in one of our main ponds and a pair of otters coming up on the trail camera coming in from pond to pond hunting for frogs. And there's just so much incredible biodiversity there.

Speaker 3: 7:35

Yeah, so it is something, and that's that's just leading off from that train of thought. You know you don't have to. You don't have to have grown up in that environment to fall in love with it and fully appreciate it and open up a whole new area of your life, you know, in relation to what's out there, beyond the front door and the back door, to enjoy. And you don't have to have acres of land either, even a small garden you can attract in biodiversity and be blown away by it.

Speaker 1: 8:01

Yeah, for sure, and we'll get to that how people can sort of do their their little bits in the garden. But something, something interesting there struck me as you were having that, and I started thinking to myself. You were drawn as a small child to nature, and your siblings less so. And, uh, you know, I think one of one of you asked the question, you know, is it a case that certain people are drawn to it and others not so much? And I wonder that, as, as you, as you were talking there, I have a 16 year old and I have a six year old. Both of them love nature. Both of them.

Speaker 1: 8:36

Both of them are, you know, like the outdoors more yeah but strangely enough the six-year-old has an unbelievable desire to know stuff about animals, about insects.

Speaker 1: 8:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah and I think for me here it becomes very obvious. So you know, sometimes when the weather is bad or whatever, and they can't get out, or particularly she can't get out, she can get a little bit pent up in herself and we just, we just look at one another and we say she needs to get outside. Yeah, within 10 minutes of being out in the polytunnel with me, or within you know, literally minutes, she completely changes everything, relaxes down she's digging up, as, as you guys mentioned, she she's digging up all types of little creatures.

Speaker 1: 9:26

She creates little homes for them. Yeah, and it's amazing to see.

Speaker 2: 9:32

Isn't it?

Speaker 1: 9:33

I think life in general creates a disconnect, whether by design or not, I don't know, but it creates a disconnect between us and nature and I think it's massively important that that connection is maintained. It's good for us, obviously, for there's the huge, huge health benefits, mental health benefits, all those things but I do think that there is certainly with with my two kids there is, you know, the younger girl has an innate attraction and I don't know that's built into her to nature yeah, yeah, that is fascinating.

Speaker 3: 10:06

But I mean I do 100% believe that you certainly can. You could grow up all your life not having that interest and you can develop it and it can, you know, a spark it's like a seed germinating something can just you know take and then all of a sudden you just find yourself becoming more and more and more interested. I mean you're a great example of that. I mean I'm not saying, of course, you were always interested in nature and you appreciated it, but you just you just love it so much now and you're so involved and so interested in learning more constantly, you know, in relation to it but I definitely think sort of outdoor recreation, uh, is a gateway to learning more about nature.

Speaker 2: 10:46

That's within that outdoors and I think that's where, um, the bit, the piece that's missing in our schooling system is that we don't have that thread throughout our education.

Speaker 2: 10:57

You know, and it should be part of every day, every school day, throughout all of our 14 years, that we're in school, you know um, and that you know that, like I mean, I, I'm always fascinated by the fact that I was in my um early 50s before I learned what the 28 native trees are in Ireland. You know, um, I thought sycamore was native, I thought beech was native, so all of these, these things where sometimes, as a kid, there was inaccurate information and then there wasn't enough of the right information out there. So I think, if you have that knowledge, because you really can't, you don't love something until you know it and are able to name it, and you know you won't protect it unless you care about it, and that care comes from knowing its purpose, knowing how it interacts with other creatures or other flora and fauna together, and I think that's where, for missing that knowledge, the great outdoors can always just seem like nice to see. You know, it's an aesthetic for the weekend rather than an understanding.

Speaker 2: 12:05

So I had that. Loved the aesthetic being out climbing, you know, hill walking or whatever. Loved the aesthetic, yes, the birdsong, but didn't have that connection with the importance of knowing what these creatures and and um, and plants are and how they interact together and how each one of them is important. You know, like the, jenga like the jenga blocks. You don't want to. If you start pulling out pieces, the whole ecosystem comes crashing down.

Speaker 1: 12:33

So um yeah, it's funny we said this conversation could go in any direction.

Speaker 1: 12:38

It's education as well that I often talk about, um, and it's interesting when you say that about the, the nature, and you know, in a, in a, in a time where we do have so much in terms of down the line trouble in mental health issues and all those sort of things, a connection to nature gives people a grounding and it doesn't solve those issues, but it's certainly. It certainly paves the way for a calmer future, I would say, and I kind of tie gardening in with that as well. So, you know, you know, from an education point of view, for for kids to understand where food, proper food, comes from and how to grow that proper food. And it has everything. It has the, the natural benefits of being outside, it has mathematics in working out, you know spacings and what goes where I think really does have everything. And nature is the same, and if you're able to intertwine those together, it's certainly. I think it's something that should be in every school in every country. Yeah, without a doubt, yeah, I mean it should be so much more focused on.

Speaker 3: 13:45

But I mean, I look, I mean we talked, I mean in relation to the. I mean the pandemic, for instance, of covid, and that was a great example and everybody's aware of that how, all of a sudden, with everything, the cessation of everything and everything stopped. People were just, you know, all of a sudden we're outside, they're in the parks like gardens, and you know, I mean it's, it's. It used to be a bit woolly in relation to, you know, nature and it was off. You know the benefits of it, but it's now proven, it's out there in science. It's been studied in such detail.

Speaker 3: 14:15

I mean, I know in the uk the nhs will actually prescribe, you know, green therapy and people prescribe people to go in certain circumstances, of course you know, to go to, to be in blue spaces, you know, around ponds, lakes, rivers, or to go out into, you know, green spaces, woodlands, parks. It reduces our cortisol levels, our stress levels and you know, I think I mean in relation to woodlands, it's been proven that going into woodlands, spending a certain amount of time, will actually boost your white blood cell count. You know the terpenoids, I think they're referred to or they're called the trees released. So there's. It's scientifically proven now at this stage.

Speaker 2: 14:53

So absolutely Studies about recovery as well from people who have been in hospital having an operation, that the recovery, that the recovery is faster if they have access to viewing um green space. So out a window or it doesn't necessarily have to be a window, it could be a massive big um ceiling to floor mural of woodland and that people who had access to that for the few days recovered quicker, quicker than the people who had just four um, there's amazing research and actually speaking of which we're going to come on to now soon wildflower meadows there's.

Speaker 1: 15:35

There was a quite a good study done in germany in relation to the vapors or the scents that come off a wildflower meadow and how they increased, you know, dopamine levels and people were naturally happier in the vicinity of that, and it was a. It was a, it was a proper study and the evidence was fairly compelling that, you know, people were just happier in near, in and around that environment.

Speaker 1: 16:00

It was, it was amazing, yeah yeah yeah, so, uh, we'll start to chat about, I suppose, the, the, the changes and the progress. So you bought this plot of land, both coming from a corporate background, both with interest in and concerns around biodiversity collapse and climate crisis and all these things, and I presume when you bought it it's green fields. Is there anything there to start with, or what was the initial.

Speaker 3: 16:29

Yeah, I mean just. I suppose it's always good, I think, to set a baseline in relation to the biodiversity. I mean just as a. I mean we were hugely concerned and are hugely concerned in relation to biodiversity in Ireland and worldwide. But I mean just so, because quite often we get the perception out there is that we live on a lovely green island and everything is green and we're wonderful, and you know. But I mean just to throw a fact on it or some figures on it.

Speaker 3: 16:58

I mean, in 2018, the London Natural History Museum, natural History Museum conducted a study of biodiversity intactness, as in the state of native biodiversity, in 240 nations worldwide and Ireland came out 13th worst in relation to the 240 nations. So we do spend a lot of money in Ireland on curating a wonderful image of a green nation, you know, but in relation to our biodiversity, it's in a bad state. So now it's not all doom and gloom, because there is a lot of things beginning to happen and there is definitely a major swing in public willingness to act, you know, and the other one is you know, since the 1970s we've lost 50% of our biodiversity in Ireland.

Speaker 2: 17:44

So even if you were to just take those, you know since the 1970s we've lost 50% of our biodiversity in Ireland.

Speaker 3: 17:49

So even if you were to just take those, you know few decades.

Speaker 2: 17:51

You know that much has been lost.

Speaker 3: 17:53

So we've lost a huge amount.

Speaker 2: 17:55

So there's a lot to gain in terms of to stop that continuous decline because it's still declining. So there's a lot to gain from stopping that and then reversing it. And we, like you know, build it and they will come. Nature is very forgiving. Once you bring the habitats back, it will respond positively, and that's the beauty of it. It's not rocket science. The solution is not rocket science. It's really straightforward. And it's a case of taking the action, and we can make a difference. Everyone can make a difference.

Speaker 3: 18:31

That's the great thing. It's now really, and it was put very succinctly there. Recently we were at a conference down in Fote Island there and it was said that now is the time for action. You know we have all the reports. I mean we declared Ireland declared a biodiversity emergency in the Dáil back in 2018, 2019. But nothing really happened concrete since then. It sounded great and made great news, but now we have all the reports and the studies and whatever else, and now is the time where we need to start restoring biodiversity. And the great thing is that everybody can be involved in restoring biodiversity in their own way, so it's not something that's beyond the reach of, you know, of people with back gardens, front gardens, courtyard everybody can play their part in doing that.

Speaker 2: 19:21

I do think that I suppose covid played a part in that, while the emergency was declared in 2019, then we had the covid emergency, that that stalled things for a bit, um, but then it did. Things started happening more and more, and you know there is there is a lot going on. I mean, if we were to go back, though, to our own example, because you asked about the blank canvas the land back in 2017.

Speaker 2: 19:46

When we got it was literally four fields of just perennial ryegrass. It had been very heavily grazed by sheep and there had been cattle on it as well, but mixed farming, the way it used to be done back in, say, the 70s, where there was a few cattle and a few sheep a little bit of everything. Biodiversity was able to live amongst that. You know, intensive agriculture, then, has caused a depletion of of nature, and I suppose that's where we found it was four fields, just grass, nothing else. Um, the the perimeter hedgerow was was okay, that was reasonable, um.

Speaker 2: 20:28

But so that blank canvas gave us an opportunity to say right, what, what are we going to create with this? You know how are we going to write this story, and I think the, the urgency was really a case of bringing habitats back, but a variety of them, you know. I mean, you could have easily just planted the whole lot, but it's just trees, you know, blocked out the deer and sort of let it do its thing. But then we kind of felt that we wanted to be part of it on an ongoing basis. So, you know, we started digging ponds, planting trees, planting hedgerow, thinking about wild meadow.

Speaker 2: 21:09

How could we um create a wildflower meadow, um, and it's it sort of evolved from there. So, um, you can say that in in one aspect, we made it up as we went along, you know, and I think the land appreciated that because we didn't um rush in. I mean the one thing we always advise people to to always assess a habitat if you're going to create a pond, for example, rather than just go start digging. Make sure you're not destroying a biodiversity rich habitat in order to create another one and it might be very discreet, looking in terms of very delicate wildflowers that are very unique and rare. So, to always make sure.

Speaker 3: 21:52

So we started working on the land and we've learned a lot over the years. You know we've made some mistakes along the way and we happily share those mistakes with people that come to us so they can avoid making the same mistakes. But overall it's worked out. It's worked out well and it's been heartening to see biodiversity come back definitely to the land and to get the responses from people that have come down to us, because I I mean what we set up with, obviously, wild Acres. It's a social enterprise.

Speaker 3: 22:25

So the mission really is to restore, help restore biodiversity and try and inspire and help as many people as possible to do the same in their outdoor space, whether it's a courtyard or whether it's. And we get people of all walks of life coming to us, people that have, you know, that have an apartment and a balcony. They want to plant some wildflowers into a pot and create a tiny pond. Or we've had people with hundreds of acres, who are large scale, you know, working to restore biodiversity and, of course, everybody in between with gardens of every size yeah, we we'll sort of move back to the wild acres again and then we'll stitch that into how people can sort of do this in their own gardens.

Speaker 1: 23:07

But, yeah, you mentioned. So you have a variety of different habitats. Now you know from reading your website. You have 52 ponds, is that right? 57 actually 57, there's more yeah every time I have a back turn I can't keep up with the yeah, the updated on the website. Yeah, so 15 000 native trees, or maybe more. Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's about right of wildflower meadows and yeah, but maybe tell us about those like the trees were the first thing, I guess yeah, well, actually just a question as well, because we are.

Speaker 3: 23:45

It's 34 acres we have now, because we actually signed off last month on another 16.36 acres lovely land, or 16 and a half acres of land which is only a few hundred meters away from the original site. So, um, again for biodiversity, brilliant. So, um, so yeah, the individual habitats on the land, as jilly said, I mean we were lucky as well. We should mention we have the red cross river, which borders the nature reserve, so that was a real um bonus to get that as well, so that brings um so much more wildlife in. But, um, it was heavily grazed. I mean, it was um the all the vegetation had been stripped away, especially along the river's edge, which was a real problem because that's such a sensitive area, that right what they call the riparian corridor, which is basically just the the transition from the aquatic habitat to the terrestrial habitat. That strip of land had been stripped of vegetation and that brings with it all sorts of problems because wildlife will use that corridor to travel along and to forage in. It's a really important habitat and without the trees, with the roots of the trees, reinforcing the riverbank, there was massive erosion problems along the river. So we did a huge amount of work myself and Gillian on that, in restoring the riverbank. There was massive erosion problems along the river so we did a huge amount of work myself and Gillian on that, in restoring the riverbank and replanting that riparian corridor with native trees.

Speaker 3: 25:07

And we also then, as I said, the wildflower meadow. We have a wet wildflower meadow, four acre wildflower meadow. This is on the original site which we mostly let regenerate itself. But we also collected local wildflower seeds and plug, planted some wildflowers in to increase the diversity because obviously, you know, with the land, with our land changed the way it is all around us, you know you haven't got that seed bank necessarily there all around to repopulate with a diverse range of wildflowers. So, for instance, we grew devil's bit scabious from seed and plug plants are in quite a lot of oxide daisy, and then the most famous one obviously is yellow rattle which we sewed in, otherwise known as the meadow maker, which is a wonderful wildflower for anybody creating a wildflower meadow. It's fairly generalist. It'll grow in most soil types, wet, you know, free draining. But the crucial thing obviously it does is it will it's what they call hemiparasitic, so it'll tap into the roots of surrounding grass and draw nutrients from them, thus obviously weakening the grass and giving a chance for more delicate wildflowers to grow through.

Speaker 2: 26:22

So and giving a chance for more delicate wildfires to grow through. So yeah, Sorry, I was just going to mention that the new land is very different. So the new land is actually mainly dry, so it's probably again. We haven't got stuck into it just yet, but we're already out the door busy. But that 16 and a half acres, a lot of that will be wild meadow. Actually, we're looking at the idea of conservation grazing on that meadow. We've certainly started by putting in some perimeter hedgerow and there'll be some stands of trees as well, but a lot of that is ideal for wildflower meadow. Yeah and yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:04

so and that'll be a different wildflower meadow and we speak about wildflowers, wildflower meadows, quite a lot on the podcast.

Speaker 1: 27:11

As I say, I've been the one that was sown here and yeah, I know no more and just let things grow is one of the yeah, it's huge, and but I suppose the and you mentioned yellow rattle, which is, you know, vital in terms of switching from lawn situation to wildflower meadow, and we have. I think that in some cases, if you have a lawn that has been kept as a lawn, it's quite difficult to transition to a wildflower meadow because, as you said, the seed bank is not there.

Speaker 1: 27:43

there's nothing there only you know this, three or four lawn grass species and in order to transition, you do need the help of something like yellow rattle and your other plug plants, anything that will give you a chance to get on top of grass.

Speaker 2: 28:04

It can be a difficult transition in people's gardens.

Speaker 2: 28:07

Yeah, I think the transition, you see, because it takes time and, like I mean, they say it's up to seven years to create a wildflower meadow.

Speaker 2: 28:12

You know, and I suppose we're always looking for the instant hit and it can be hard to wait and have that patience year in, year out. It can be hard to wait and have that patience year in, year out. I would always say to somebody, definitely cutting the borders, cutting the meandering pathway through, will always help to make that project and if it is going to take sort of seven years, you know, it makes that project look more defined and sort of rather than, yeah, because the first few years can be tricky enough, you know, and it's different whether it's in your garden versus on on acres of land, and there's different methods. Um, I mean, if you like, I can give you an example of of the what we've been through the last seven years with our meadow and the original plot of land so when the first thing um is that the livestock uh left the land end of 2017 and it's a very wet meadow, so we we left it the first year.

Speaker 2: 29:12

The second year then we got it cut, um at the end of the season, so it was in in September it was. It was cut and baled large bales, which were taken away, and we then noticed after that, the following spring, definitely more wildflowers coming, and we did that for about three years that put and lift. But because it was really heavy machinery coming on the tethering process and then the actual baling, the large bales, they have to be lifted by a forklift. It makes it harder then if we wanted to use some of those for mulching around trees that we planted. So the year after that then we found somebody who had a square baler, so it was still heavy machinery for the cutting, the tethering, and then we got a square baler, so we had hundreds of square bales which meant that you know, easy to lift when they're dry. Of course, if you leave them on they're a bit heavy when they're wet especially in a wetland area.

Speaker 2: 30:15

But we managed to get them all off the land and again very useful for mulching around trees and in the sort of polytunnel area with the tree nursery. But we were still very conscious that you know it's still really heavy machinery coming onto the land and when it cuts it cuts everything. And you know when we've been collecting yellow rattle seed now we harvest it. You know in sort of August time and the amount of life in those buckets. You know when we collect it by hand, literally down on our hands or knees, shaking the seed into buckets and it is heaving with you know, with caterpillars with spiders with shield bugs and you know, absolutely heaving with caterpillars with spiders with shield bugs and absolutely heaving.

Speaker 2: 31:04

So if machinery comes in to do your cutting, all of that is just decimated, including obviously any frogs, because it's wetland, including the frogs that are in there, and everything else.

Speaker 2: 31:15

So then we said, right, we really want to move away from that. So the following year after that then we said, right, we really want to move away from that. So the following year after that. Then we said, right, let's try going back to traditional siding. So we bought a number of sides, so four acres of which is a blood sport. Yeah, yeah. And we're certainly not.

Speaker 3: 31:35

It's even worse when you're on blood.

Speaker 2: 31:38

And we've actually run a sythian workshop in collaboration.

Speaker 3: 31:41

Yeah, which is very interesting. I would actually I joke about the side, but actually it's a viable thing, certainly. I mean, it's a wonderful um way of cutting a wildflower meadow, because it's so you know, it's so sensitive in relation to the wildlife that's there. You're not desi, you're not crushing everything and decimating everything and baling everything, so I often think it's something that you know. Now, in fairness, it was difficult in our land because the grass had over a year's growth and so it was heavy.

Speaker 3: 32:11

But if you've got a garden, you know and you get a scythe and you follow the basics of how to use it. You can get a garden. No time for a scythe, follow the basics on how to use it. You can plot a garden no time aside. You know there's no diesel, there's no fumes If you keep it up every year. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:23

Before we started siding, there was a gap of a year between the square building and the side there was a gap, so that makes it extra hard. But again, siding you're still. Yeah, there a lot of work in it, but you know, it's great yeah, it is, it's.

Speaker 2: 32:38

I would recommend it for small areas. It's really not. So, of the four acres, we managed to get an acre done. Well, right, um. But going back to I mentioned earlier about conservation grazing, there's there's huge benefits that because, like so, if you have, um say, cattle on certain breeds of cattle are really good for conservation grazing Dexters or Dremines or maybe even the Angus, aberdeen Angus and if they're in low density, moving around your pasture, it allows wildlife to be part of that because, obviously, as the cows are eating, if there's anything in the way it'll move out of the way and they'll graze away and wildflowers will grow. I mean, if you put 100 cattle in the field they'll eat everything, but if it's small, low density, I suppose that's for landholding yeah, yeah for landholding.

Speaker 2: 33:39

You're not going to do that in your terrace garden or your clean cattle looking over your fence at your neighbor. But definitely the siding method, or even a sickle, or, to be honest, you know I've tried it before with the shears. So at the end of you know like we have a tiny back garden here in Stirlorgan so we could quite happily go with that.

Speaker 3: 33:59

now we mow a pathway through you cut it in half an hour. Oh yeah, you cut it very quickly with the scythe.

Speaker 2: 34:07

But if somebody didn't feel like, you know buying a scythe and having that, you know you do it with the sickle, which is a very small handout, or you could do it with the shears, you know as well, and the lift you've got to lift the lift.

Speaker 3: 34:22

You take your cuttings away and leave them sit for a while to dry and any wildfire seed to drop from the heads and then remove them. So you're taking nutrients away, obviously, from the soil, demutifying the soil giving a chance for the delicate wildflowers to come through.

Speaker 1: 34:39

So, it's interesting what you said at the start there, because the wildflower meadow I have and I speak about it quite a bit it looks peak for a very short window, and that short window is probably end of May through to sort of end of June, early July, and that's when it's at its real peak. The oxide is dominating, your tall buttercup is dominating, and after that then it is in terms of aesthetic or the. You know what people are perceiving this.

Speaker 1: 35:14

Yes, yes, yes, it is, it is yes, it is going downwards from there, but the life in it is unbelievable so unbelievable. I certainly have my view and my initial idea for the wildflower meadow was cut it, cut out, mowing or a certain amount of mowing. And obviously, looking for that aesthetic and I did I I probably know more than the the normal person doing it I knew I was going to have periods where it wasn't going to look perfect, but the window is quite small, but it has changed. For me, the aesthetic, the six weeks are lovely, they're a bonus, but everything that has happened as a result of that is what has really excited me there. Yeah, the, everything from spiders to beetles. You know every sort of that. I don't even know what a lot of them are, but it is just alive all year, isn't it?

Speaker 3: 36:08

it's just we know, I mean it definitely, it's a mindset and I think that's the crucial word applies, I suppose, to a lot of aspects of our gardening. You know that we just have to allow space for nature and the days of just those closely cropped billiard table type lawn and you know that flower bed that's cleaned nearly like a carpet, where all the materials are taken away in the autumn. In the autumn, I mean that's like in the countryside, that green field sward of lush green ryegrass that's cut three times a year for silage. Both of those are deserts for biodiversity. I mean you do fall in love.

Speaker 3: 36:48

I mean our meadow is the same, the wet wild farm, and it's a riot of colour in the spring, you know, with cardamom potensias, with cuckoo flower and creeping buttercup. And then you know it goes on and you look at it as the summer goes on, it takes on a golden hue with the grasses, but even then we get a bit of knapweed then coming through towards later in the season and the devil's bit scabious. You know Beautiful. But you know nature tells you what's right and what's wrong and we look at the swallows. You know hunting over the field, you know hoovering up the insects and, as you just said you look at what's beneath the sword. You know you see all the shield bugs and the caterpillars and the spiders and it's just mind-blowing the life that's in there really is but actually going.

Speaker 2: 37:34

Going back to the aesthetics, I'm kind of looking out at our patch there in the small garden and right now, so I think it looks great. Now the sun is shining, so that's an advantage, but right now you can see there's lots of dandelion in bloom, there's oxalate Loads of cowslip actually so cowslip it started off a few years ago at the back garden just one plant of it, and now this year I can see there's at least seven or eight cowslip clumps, and so they're in bloom right now and then the plantain.

Speaker 3: 38:09

it looks good as well.

Speaker 2: 38:10

There's oxeye daisy yarrow Coming through, they'll replace that will be, you know, oxeye, daisy and yarrow. But the people coming through that will replace that will be, you know, oxeye, daisy and yarrow and knapweed. And so you can actually have from spring right through to autumn, that succession planting. You know that people like if you were doing formal borders. You know that people plan for that. But you can do the same with native wildflowers.

Speaker 3: 38:29

There's figwort down the bottom Fig. I figure it's a really interesting plant. It is Wasps. Absolutely adore it, love it. I know, when you say wasps, most people they balk and they'll think. But there's a great example of how we need to just really reconnect with. I mean wasps are so important, you know, in relation to the niche they fill in the ecosystem and in the control of other insects. That word pests, I think, is a terrible word I mean but but you know they'll control the likes of green flies and black flies.

Speaker 2: 38:56

I want to get back to the aesthetics, because I'm looking out at the card chair and I just wanted to mention another idea, just that obviously we do the cut and lift in the autumn, but we do leave areas where we don't cut and lift. So say, for example, right now I'm looking at these lovely tall knapweed um seed heads that obviously there's no seed in them any longer, but you have the, the stalk and the, the dried flower head, yeah, and it's standing up, yeah, when everything else is kind of more, uh, low growing at the moment, like the dandelion and cowslip and um, you know, actually I love the dandelion clocks, you know, when they go to seed I think they look very pretty as well, and the goldfinch.

Speaker 3: 39:40

Love them and the house farmers were eating money. Yesterday I was looking at the seed.

Speaker 2: 39:44

But the remnants of last year's knackweed looks very aesthetically pleasing in amongst that, you know For sure.

Speaker 1: 39:53

In terms of the podcast, I had Sandra Cofola on, it was one of the of. Uh. In terms of the podcast, I had sandra kafola on, it was one of the first episodes or one of the early episodes back in 2020, and so sandra sandra is genius in wildflowers, um, but yeah, yeah, yeah, one of his in in that podcast. Uh, there's a line that just keeps coming back to me all the time. So somebody questioned him and said there's no, there's no color in the wildflower meadow in the winter and he said what do you mean?

Speaker 1: 40:18

there's no color. You have the gold finches, the bull finches yes, it's, it's a perception thing. So there's no flower, or no flower of mention, but there is all these seed heads there, and a great example again is the napweed out the front of my house. So you'll have the goldfinches and they'll be hanging off it.

Speaker 1: 40:39

It'll be bent like a fishing rod and the the goldfinches are just hanging there eating the seed heads yeah, it's just amazing to see that but it is a perception change because in in the, in the eye of, if you're looking at it, versus the postcard of a fully fledged in flower meadow, it looks like it's gone over that. It isn't overly beautiful, but when you see a goldfinch, as I say, hanging off the head of a napweed, there's nothing more beautiful. But it's just a different.

Speaker 2: 41:11

It's a different beautiful and also maybe I think if we got active in that environment at that time of year as well, it would help. So say, as well as the goldfinch being able to to feed off the seed, that if we collected the seed by hand, so again that you know the seed that is in our area is more suited to the land of the area. So ideally if we were all collecting it and it gets you connected with that autumn nature by doing that collecting the seed, and then learning how to then propagate that on into plug plants to then plant out in your own garden, so that you're not actually having to necessarily go out and buy wildflower seeds, that you're actually generating that yourself. You know it can be done. I mean an example which we did actually only the last couple of weeks actually go out and buy wildflower seeds that you're actually generating that yourself. You know it can be done.

Speaker 3: 41:56

I mean an example which we did actually only the last couple of weeks actually, which we, again, we were all learning every day, and one was cardamom pretenses, cuckoo flower, lady smock, which is, again, you know, you talk about the interdependency between our flora and our fauna and how important native plants are.

Speaker 3: 42:12

You know, as opposed to you know us filling completely our gardens with non-native plants. You know the orange tip butterflies now, which are out in force at wild acres and they're so larval food well, also hedge mustard, but their main larval food plant is cardamom pretenses, cuckoo flower, and we actually only just found out there a couple weeks ago. You can propagate that from leaf cuttings, and all you do is get a whole load of leaf cuttings, put them in a ziplock bag with some rainwater, leave them in the sunlight and they'll all root. And we have some of them, about 100 of them, in a Ziploc bag here on the windowsill. They've all sent out these thread-like roots so they can all be propagated into individual plants. So it is fascinating, all these things, all these ways of propagating.

Speaker 1: 42:55

I'm conscious that we're sort of heading towards the end. But one thing I want to go back to and I know you have workshops on this, but the wildlife ponds, so tell us about those, oh yeah.

Speaker 3: 43:09

Okay, have we got another three hours?

Speaker 1: 43:12

I have but I don't know, have you guys got three hours?

Speaker 3: 43:15

No yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, they're just dynamite, they are just, you know. In a nutshell, I mean, you know we planted thousands of native trees and we've our tree nursery and I always think that you know an oak tree, first 300 years, class of juvenile, next 300 years, middle age, next 300, last 300 years veteran. You know, and so you plant trees in a way for the next generation. You know woodland, but you dig a wildlife pond and wildlife will find, sometimes within hours, because a lot of the incredible, fascinating creatures that you're going to get in your wildlife ponds. You know diving beetles of various different species. You know water scorpions, water stick insects, water boatmen, they can all fly and they all find that water habitat, that newly dug habitat or created wildlife pond. They'll fly at night to avoid predation. They pick up the glint of starlight and moonlight on a water surface and that's how they find new habitats. But water just attracts in so much biodiversity.

Speaker 2: 44:15

I mean, all life needs water, so it sort of makes sense, doesn't it?

Speaker 3: 44:20

We need. I mean, it's so relaxing to have.

Speaker 2: 44:23

What's that saying? That a garden without a pond is like a theatre without a stage.

Speaker 3: 44:31

That's really out of the question.

Speaker 2: 44:33

I didn't make that up myself. I didn't make that up myself. I put it a bit more basically than that. It's a bit like the fireplace in a living room. It's that centre stage, that a wildlife pond and again because you want them to be located in a sunny area so they're not hidden away in the corner. They are actually become the centre stage.

Speaker 3: 44:54

You put them somewhere that you can see them, as we always recommend to people Like the fire. They are actually become the centre stage. You put them somewhere that you can see them, as we always recommend to people Like the fire we all gather around the fire.

Speaker 2: 44:59

It's like the same. You know a pond, everything comes to it. You know the birds will come in to drink and bathe and to feed, obviously for insects over the pond.

Speaker 3: 45:09

so you'll find, yeah, I mean, we've 57 ponds at Wildegres but we've one small pond here in our garden. Still remember we were saying there, in the space of in the space of two hours. There last summer, during one of the hot spells, we counted 11 different bird species came into the pond just to drink and to bathe. They're just such a haven for wildlife and there's I mean, what you know on a day like today and it's a beautiful day you have to be able to sit out, if you have the time, with a cup of tea and a deck chair, and sit by the pond.

Speaker 1: 45:38

It's so relaxing yeah, let's try it sometime yeah, um, speaking of speaking of, uh, your ponds and the creation of ponds. So workshops are a big team, of what you guys do and, yeah, and I know one of the workshops is how to create your own wildlife ponds. So maybe talk us through some of the workshops.

Speaker 2: 45:58

I know you've good few upcomings, so tell us about some of those yeah, yeah, um, so yeah for me, like may's a busy month as well for us. So we, we do, we do a honey tour. I'll give you an example. So we, we do have an apiary down at wild acres, a small number of hives again, we don't want to flood the land with honeybees, but it's a small number of hives and we're producing honey sustainably because it's important that we're able to produce food in our country. But it's how we produce this that's key.

Speaker 2: 46:29

The honey tour is really. It's a relaxing sort of immersive morning learning about the importance of, before we think about, you know, having hives. That it's about what are the plants that are around, so the hedgerow full of flowering plants, and you know, the ground flora, that there's enough food for the honeybees, but also all the other bee species, the bumblebees and solitary bees that are so important, and they're the ones actually that are threatened at the moment in terms of population and species. So the honey tour is a lovely relaxing focus on how honey is produced by our wonderful native Irish honeybee and then how we would bring that from hive into jar. But we do talk a lot about biodiversity and about native plants, whether it's trees, whether it's hedgerow, whether it's bramble. I mean, you know people curse bramble, but it's one of the most important plants.

Speaker 3: 47:29

A lot of the plants we've been talking about are the most important for biodiversity Brambles and nettles and ragwort they're all incredible Dogs, you know, yeah, so the Honey Tour is really.

Speaker 2: 47:38

It's about producing food sustainably and in tune with nature and, yeah, a lot about biodiversity. It's a lovely, relaxing morning. The Guide to Nature experience, then, is just that it's about that immersion in nature for a few hours through the nature reserve, but also showing we do a lot of biodiversity monitoring, so we take trail camera footage, take a lot of photographs and some aerial stuff as well, and so we have that to show people in presentation format, because on the day itself, depending on the season, you'll see certain creatures out, but you won't see everything, so you know, whether it's the red kite or the woodpeckers or the kingfisher fishing on the main pond.

Speaker 2: 48:27

All of these things were able to show people through an audio visual presentation, as well as doing the guide guided tour around the nature reserve which, to have to say, most every day seems to be sunny when we're doing that, and we're very lucky with the weather um, there's always tea and coffee and bickies as well, um, and then we have a gardening for biodiversity workshop too, and and that's more focused on people who love gardening, have gardens but want to do more to bring more nature into that environment. So it's a lovely, immersive experience covering anything from ponds to hedgerow, native hedgerow to pollinator beds and wildflower lawns yeah, and then, of course, the ponds workshop. Yeah, biggie, that's it. That's a huge one.

Speaker 1: 49:14

That's the one that you know sells out the quickest, yeah, so so on that one, people learn how to create a wildlife pond in their garden, and they can scale it up or down depending on the size of the garden.

Speaker 3: 49:29

Yeah, I mean, we have, as I say, 57 ponds. We've one which is the size of a football pitch and everything in between, right the way down to a micro pond made from a recycled flower bucket, you know, so somebody could put it on a balcony, for instance. So you know, we cover the whole topic of ponds, as to how you build them of every size, how you maintain them. We show people the wildlife that they bring in and, yeah, it's just a purpose from start to finish.

Speaker 2: 49:54

Yeah, from garden ponds to countryside everything in between and um ponds that will be lined um you know ponds that don't need to be lined to check.

Speaker 3: 50:04

Do you need to? Do you actually have to, or do you need a liner in the first place and where to site them?

Speaker 2: 50:10

how to manage them. How to manage them? So yeah, track the biodiversity in them. You know the pond dips and um, enjoy the wonderful creatures.

Speaker 3: 50:18

So yeah, every after yeah, we get lots of people would come. People tend to love it and they send us in pictures.

Speaker 2: 50:23

Then, weeks later upon, they've created so, yeah, we love to get the photos after it's over. Yeah, I imagine that's that's very satisfying.

Speaker 1: 50:31

Yeah, and so I know you're adding workshops all the time and there's workshops through a lot of a lot of the months of the year. So I will put the link to the in the show notes. You know where people can find um all these different workshops and you know you'll see the future ones coming up and all that before we sort of round off. Um I mentioned uh, listeners of the podcast are probably sick of me talking about it Very excited, two very exciting things happened in a garden setting here.

Speaker 1: 51:01

Got the bull finches in for the first time last year which I know for some people is not exciting, because they're widespread in certain places, but we never had them here, so to get them in was brilliant, and then last just before Christmas we got, uh, the woodpecker in and oh wow, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:20

So a friend of mine a couple of years ago who only lives about three miles away he saw one on his bird feeder sent me a picture of it and it was a woodpecker, but I definitely hadn't seen any here. And then just around Christmas time, every day for about a week I saw a woodpecker in the garden and that was very exciting, for me, but for you guys for you guys, on the scale that you're at, what have been the most exciting things that have happened.

Speaker 3: 51:48

I would say yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:51

That's it. Yeah, I would say just.

Speaker 3: 51:53

Of course, there is some standout moments, you know, obviously the otters every day.

Speaker 3: 52:00

In January on our main wildlife pond, which is very unusual we had a dog otter coming up and hunting just in broad daylight, foraging in the pond. So we actually got some incredible footage where, because his eyesight wasn't that great, we were able to walk down in front of it and it was literally about three, four foot away from the camera and it was there, scratching itself, rolling over like a dog on the grass, and then you could see. Every now and then it would sense that maybe there's something there and would look up and smell. The wind was in the right direction. So this went on for about three, four minutes and then eventually went into the pond and was foraging around looking for frogs and dragonfly nymphs and then eventually just twigged with something that went off.

Speaker 3: 52:42

But I would say overall, just the amount, just being the pleasure of seeing nature rebound. You know from what was a desert, you know seeing biodiversity coming back, and that's so it was. It's hard work, I'll be honest with you, and it can be depressing work, you know, in relation to the overall scale of things. So it is. I mean just you know, when you look at the trends, you know in relation to biodiversity loss and you see the headlines. It can be quite disheartening at times, but on the plus side definitely there is a lot. There is a major swing towards the want to restore biodiversity in Ireland.

Speaker 2: 53:16

Yeah, I'd say, as well as the biodiversity returning, the people that come to us are amazing so everybody that's come is just so lovely.

Speaker 2: 53:25

And I like to say that, like so, we started. This is the start of our fourth year doing workshops and tours and events, doing workshops and tours and events and I have to say everybody has just been lovely, because people who want to take action for nature I just tend to have that really good heart they want to, to, to take action and do something and learn what they can do. So that's really yeah, yeah no, it is.

Speaker 3: 53:52

Yeah, that's very hard actually, and there's a lot more people taking action. Yeah, that's the good, that's definitely the plus.

Speaker 1: 53:58

Yeah, yeah, for sure and I I understand what you're saying in that. Uh, it can be depressing if you look at the overall, yeah, the overall broader picture and you, yeah, you feel against the face of that, or or we feel as individuals in the face of that, that we're, you know, looking up a really, really steep cliff and and it's hard to move the needle. But, yeah, it is incredible, the compounding interest of small, small projects and small steps and, you know, multiplied across many gardens, across many farms across many you many situations like yourselves.

Speaker 1: 54:36

How that compounds and changes the direction.

Speaker 3: 54:39

Hopefully, yeah, yeah, I can feel that, I can definitely feel that, actually and that's one thing we'd like to just stress as well I mean you said it there so perfectly, but just to add to it, you know, everybody that's, you know, in relation to the biodiversity crisis especially, everybody can have a huge impact. I mean, if you've got an outdoor space of any size and you create a little pocket of habitat and somebody two, three, four doors up does the same and someone else does the same, you're creating that wonderful thing, connectivity in the landscape and all these pockets of habitat, so wildlife can move throughout the landscape from your garden to the next garden three doors up, and on and on and on, and that has a massive positive impact even apart from our well-being which we talked about, which is huge.

Speaker 3: 55:23

So yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 55:25

I was just going to say the woodpeckers were a highlight for us too, by the way. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 55:29

And still are. Hang a peanut feeder out in your garden, one of the rigid, mesh ones in the winter, and if they're there they'll be in absolutely now I have to say that one.

Speaker 1: 55:39

I looked out. It was a bit of a shock. So it was early one morning making breakfast and the next day I looked out and it was just. It was just such a shock. And then to come back for four or five days in a row and I was just delighted I haven't seen them just recently and I'm not overly worried about that, but I think the fact that they're on the move towards our direction, I think I'm yeah, that's a good news story.

Speaker 3: 56:04

They're actually doing very well.

Speaker 2: 56:06

I think they've been recorded.

Speaker 3: 56:07

Yeah, they're in every county. They re-colonised back there about 20 years on this, especially on the east coast, into Glenwood and the Down. Now they've spread. So, yeah, that's a good news story.

Speaker 1: 56:16

Yeah, for sure for sure, really interested to get up and see your place during the year.

Speaker 2: 56:24

Yeah, important.

Speaker 1: 56:25

Sounds amazing, looks amazing. It's a really good story. Congratulations and well done on what you've achieved so far. By the sounds of both of you. You're definitely not stopping. You're pushing and developing further and, yeah, you can hear the enthusiasm from yourself, so it's phenomenal.

Speaker 3: 56:44

Thank you. Thank you very much, I'll see you.

Speaker 2: 56:47

Lovely to be a part of this podcast. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 56:49

It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Speaker 1: 56:52

So a huge thanks to Gillian Bright for coming on. For any of you listening and watching you can feel and see the enthusiasm you know from from the two of them, the, the work that's been done there, the the effort to change the needle, I guess in terms of what's happening is is there for all to see those workshops. You know all the various ones. There's hugely beneficial information for people to take and implement in their own gardens and even from an awareness piece to you know, to engage with you know wild acres and become aware of what's happening and the changes that are happening out there. I think is hugely important. I'll put the link for the courses and the website and so on in the show notes, but definitely check them out. It's a phenomenal place. I heard about it from Rosie May, the insomniac gardener.

Speaker 1: 57:45

She had been to visit and she said it was a fabulous place and really worth going to. So yeah, that's where I heard about it, but it's certainly worth checking out for yourselves. Check out the courses, check out the you know, visit if you can, and so on. So that's been this week's episode. Thanks for listening and until the next time, happy gardening. Thank you, you.